The stox grapevine is amazing in some respects, some of course is self perpetuating - however I was buttonholed by my old friend Carrot Cruncher who heard a rumour F1's would not be featuring at Sheffield in 2010 - I of course set things straight that they would - however took a step back - and thought I should have added the caveot, subject to sufficient support!

4 major Banger events ARE scheduled for Sheffield already in 2010 and the 3 biggest audiences in '09 sponsoring stox will all be Bangers!
It seems to be what the locals want.

The July event will be a catalyst for deciding on 2010 and a lot of work has gone into it however it cannot continue to be subsidised and the day may inevitably come when it just doesn't work.

The improvements at the venue have been considerable event down to Marty continue experimenting with the fence, now adding seven ropes to 25% of the fence and undertaking further ongoing improvements before July 26th.

In a sport losing that has lost so many venues over the years - and a consistent band of `dreamers' who sggest new tracks and lament over `lost' ones have to understand that what we have has to be supported and losing well appointed venues is certainly not an option in this day and age.

On another thread a poster suggested that admission prices were higher at places such as Cov/BV as he suspects that costs for staging are higher than normal - he suggested 25% - reality in BV/Sheffield case is AT LEAST 50% higher than a norm!

There is talk regarding WF prices - in reality they generally like most major events actually too cheap to allow the budget to really put the type of show offered at venues like the Millenium Stadium - we all have to wake up and smell the coffee.

It isn't all about promotion / advertising which our two wheeled colleagues undertake in abundance to litle effect - the best method of marketing is word of mouth and we need to talk things up.

The main support that is needed when it comes to sheffield is from the drivers.If the BSCDA rally the troops in support of what is a premier stadium then that has to be the basis for a turnaround of fortunes.
I have said how much your efforts in improving the venue is worthy of the utmost praise,but if the drivers don't rally round in numbers then the fans will be reluctant to do the same.
We desperately need Sheffield to be the Coventry of the north but at the moment it has a reputation for low car turnouts,i can only see that as being the reason the banger crowds are superior.(no disrespect to the banger people)
I genuinely wish you all the best and hope it all comes good,i think you deserve it.

steven wrote:

There is talk regarding WF prices - in reality they generally like most major events actually too cheap to allow the budget to really put the type of show offered at venues like the Millenium Stadium - we all have to wake up and smell the coffee. It isn't all about promotion / advertising which our two wheeled colleagues undertake in abundance to litle effect - the best method of marketing is word of mouth and we need to talk things up.

As paying customers we have to look at what is on offer ,i understand the difference between a Speedway GP at the Millenium stadium and a F1 World Final at Kings Lynn...it almost cannot be compared.
You have a meeting at one of the best stadiums in the world putting on a show in which every race is important to that particular championship, on a truly worldwide scale with all professional competitors starting off on a level footing.
Whereas you have what is basically a normal race meeting with one special 7 minute race that really matters on the night.
Seating that is open to the elements while watching,Also a limited overseas contingent directly involved placed in predetermined slots,with only 2 of them with any real chance from row 3..,in what has been described as a hobby not a sport.
Regardless of how many fans are going to be there it boils down to what the individual paying customer deems an acceptable admission charge for what is on offer.
I did say almost beyond compare,the only thing comparable is the cost.
For a family of 4 to go to the KL world final it would be £94 pre booked and £112 on the day seated.
For a family of 4 at the Millenium stadium it was £87 or £97.

The reason i started the thread on stoxnet was that other things were blamed on attendance in the past which were tantamount to questioning fans loyalty.Also iam hearing the same thing too many times in conversation about people 'giving it a miss',its ashame really.

You are to a degree right Lofty - however the sport needs an enormous leap of faith - Take GP Speedway - Before Benfield, now IMG took over and invested significant monies, the last `ordinary' World Championship for Speedway at Coventry had around 7000 [ don't hold me to that figure exactly ] down from 23000 at Bradford in the early eighties.

The investment enabled the event to move to the Millenium Stadium and doubtless the GP series is now returning that investment across Europe for IMG - although the operational costs and risk are enormous.

An event at the Millenium Stadium will cost north of £1/4m to stage.

However, back to reality, the F1 World should be elevated to that showcase status and somehow opened to a wider audience. In reality and compared with other sports such as speedway for bigger events, the WF
is very reasonably priced as are the sports other big events such as the British - particularly when you consider the fact that crowds for a WF were
10 - 14000 25 years ago and now around 7000 - that is up to a 50% decline set against probably a 50% + increase in overall staging costs by comparison. I does not leave a lot in the kitty for what I would like to see/spend on such an event - particularly when a promotion gets the event every several years!

Currently stock car racing is relatively small business and therefore does not generate the revenue required to have more upmarket stadiums and facilities and most, if not all promoters invest what they can afford in repairs/renewals and improvements - but that come only from turnstile income profit.

What we need is someone with the vision and capital to take the huge risk [ as Benfield did in purchasing the GP rights from the FIM or whoever ] and propel things to a different level.

Admission prices for a WF in the right environment are not a deterrent to attracting a sizeable audience - 42,000 at Cardiff - the majority paying substantially more than to attend an F1 World - are not all speedway fans - it has become a major sporting event / attraction in it's own right which has a wider benefit to the local economy.

Before my days are over, I still would love to operate an event at Cardiff - but on tarmac!!! - Who knows, let's wait and see.

NB - Last years WF crowd was probably the best of the last 5 years - a lot of work went into marketing and promoting it and different things were tried to improve the experience - Some worked, some didn't, the important apart was to attract and satisfy a wider audience. Some thins were dictated by local regulations however we did a detailed post event analysis as posted some time ago.
Promoters - indeed all of us - have to be careful what you take away as useful feedback from internet comment.
For example we logged every call, e-mail posting, letter and telephone call received post 2008 and overall it achieved a very,very high satisfaction level albeit reading fans forums you would believe different [ a small number and not representative of the majority] although in the end of the day you have to take away some things via a post mortem and find a way of satisfying everyone - almost impossible - You have to aim for the majority.
In Ippy's case if the last race and first race had swopped around then it would have the sentiment of a different event. The audience for this event is wide ranging and you have to put something together that appeals to the majority. Every track is also different, Ippy in reality needs 40 cars to fill it - KL for example doesn't

Reading this thread, I think 2 points stand out.
1. Lofty's comment about driver turnout at Sheffield is right. Many people I know seem to follow the drivers lead, and if drivers arn't going, they don't go either.
I do not know what the drivers have against Sheffield, I have heard many things ( some probably liablous ) but Sheffield could be one of our premier stadia, it's location is ideal = reachable by all, and I really do believe if you can come together with the drivers, Sheffield will be a winner.

2. On the W/F, your right, one promotion can never invest sufficient funding to achieve the dream of many, but, should it be left to just one promotion? Or should the W/F be promoted by Stock Car racing as a whole?
Just athought.

To be fair Sheffield is a very hard track - drivers will as a course of nature say it was the pit area or whatever inoccuous reasons - it is and always has been one of the most challenging tracks on the BriSCA circuit.

We have started to invest in the venue and address some of the niggles - Martin on our behalf constantly improves the fence - and seven ropes in places definately helps - but whatever it will always be a mans track.
Car numbers at Sheffield have generally been on the increase and we are confident of a good turnout July - You are right, car attendance will generally, although not always,reflect crowd attendance.
May was a hiccup - but it seems it is a venue everyone 'loves' to express an opinion on - hopefully because they care about it. Stoke used to be much maligned - and we lost it - be very careful we do not loce Sheffield to Banger Racing because it is unikely to return - we should get behind it and the many improvements and keep it moving forwards.

With regard WF - There have been consortium events in the past - speedway has BSPA promoted events - generally the structures of the sport just do not support this type of operation although what would be interesting and the right way forward was for the sport to trial a centrally led WF in a major venue - but in the current economy amongst other considerations, respctfully it is a big ask. But, I agree, we should look at ways forward - that said, other than what we have where do we go, sugestions are not dropping off trees or investment, O2 Arena - Cardiff - whilst we remain `interested' in this project - we wouldn't dream of a WF there for a host of reasons.

Thinking back to Ipswich, every track has different demographics - We had to make the WF programme in '08 fit the limitations of the stadium in timing terms given the scrutiny F1's were under there, they were literally in the last chance saloom noise wise. One of the many positives, the massive input into noise at Ipswich not only satisifed the local authorities but many others -

The dutch made up a significant part of the two day audience.

We would do some things differently if we returned to Ipswich such as return to a Heat 3 WF but given a 6.45.pm - 10.15.pm curfew, it probably would have to be limited to a six race programme - and pray for no stoppages. We had to take all that into account last year as well as putting on a show `for everyone' - Presentation, 104 cars, hospitality, access, egress, catering were just about spot on together with weather - Pa perhaps in areas not as good and race format, would have benefitted from 3 x 36 car heats, 36 car consolation, 36 car Final and 36 car GN. This is something Deane learnt from WF night that 25/26 cars on track was not enough hence 2/3rds format for 45 cars last month.

We worked hard with the BSCDA to ensure a great night for the drivers,
we included the Under 25's race - which perhaps wasn't right for this event.

Having watched the DVD end to end twice, remains satisified and proud that it ticked most boxes that does not mean you do not log and store and learn - but like I said, every venue has a different environment.

KL this year will be excellent, it has a head start with size of stadium, shale and track dynamics where 36 cars around the Norfolk Arena is awesome whilst at Ippy leaves you thinking there should be more!

Tar v shale will always be to a degree horsepower v action - unless you have loads of cars on track.

I have spoken to several people over the last six months, most by accident, and all unconnected with our sport everyday who for different reasons were at Ipswich, some via sponsors some from this area - and this was their first visit - and ALL have been back to BriSCA venues -
The cross section was amazing, a circuit fan I spoke to at NEC, a Mancunian at the Heroes of Sport exhibition who is into Karting and who was a guest of main sponsor Mansons to name but two, the first has been a visitor to NIR and the latter now a regular at BV.
As stated you have to present balance for everyone as a WF crowd is different - 1200 to 7000 is 5800 people who arn't regulars - and they are the ones that we need to `hook' to returnmore regularly.
In terms of `on track' action, one can only deliver 104 cars, +4 on those promised! 100% 7 races delivered by 9.25.pm with good grids 100%
Slick presentation,show and clear up 95% [ -5% for PA in places ] As many comments about the drivers atop a bus as a parade lap were received [ in fact more] than those who didn't like it, Fireworks finale - right for this type of event 100% - Could we have done things different to improve things? not at the time - but by learning you will always improve - could we have altered the racing - not at the time, we set the stage with 23/24 cars per race except WF,Under 25's and Final - and you can only hope that all are epics - but again, you learn, next time 3 x 30+ IF we returned to Ipswich!

Have to pick up on Tims suggestion posted elsewhere about the WF being a non profit event for the benefit of the sport - Question Tim, for whose benefit ?

Promoters take enormous gambles, sometimes abuse and a lot of stress in promoting and have to take god with bad - they are human beings running a business like all other SME's - WF revenue every seven years is part of the budget so to speak to ensure the whels keep ticking over.

Whilst investment capital is scarce, imagine how much less there would be !

The return from a WF is not huge particularly given the `risk' outlay involved and certainly depreciated over several years of up and down meetings.

Sometimes we have to be `real' - it was £43 for an advance ticket to visit the recent Speedweekend and that for was for an event that did not cost anywhere near the F1 costs.

Hi Steve,
The reasoning for my question was simple, as you have said one individual will always find it difficult if not near impossible to speculate large amounts of money on staging a world final at a one off / modern venue and the thought was simply would a collection of individuals be in a more realistic position to do so? I don't know, it was a question.
The idea of non profit was simply to try such a venture without the pressure of, say yourself, having to make the profit you would require, if it worked, then on going theres no reason why promotions shouldn't make a profit from it
The other issue with my thought is would there be a knock on gain for all promtions from the possilble media exposure such a venture could attain? again I don't know.
I do appreciate that there are people who make a living from Stock Cars, namely promoters, and running at a profit is a must, just could making a big thing of our world final in such a way have long term benefits for all, including financial benefits for promotions?
Just thinking "outside the box" something i do too much according to my better half.

Agreed Tim, JH, Sandhu and myself have been talking along these lines for some time - and something is in the melting pot now. Some potential projects that could be very big [ and potentially lucrative ] are just too big an investment for most individuals and it makes sense to share predominantely risk and therefore reward.

You should understand that promoters individally and in groups do continually look at possibilities outside the box but often for a variety of reasons cannot progress.

Back in 2002 we came very close to securing a date at Cardiff - costings had been obtained, it progressed to a stage that a HSE review was undertaken by the Millenium Stadium Board at Hednesford WF where they were entertained if that is the right word by myself, Neil Randon, the editor of MN, the editor of Autosport [ and discussions were underway for the Haymarket publications to be main media sponsors ] Malcolm Aylott who attended Cardiff with myself was working on a TV deal - and the visit resulted in approval to the main board. The major issue then came over scheduling and the only window available was June where we wanted early December for commercial reasons. This could not be overcome and subsequently when Speedway renewed their contract even June/July became impossible as they had an extra clause added into their contract re competing events. Since then the operational management at the stadium has regularly changed. Cardiff remains an option if many things can be worked through - the above illustrates that behind the scenes things do continually go on. As recent as this year myself and and a colleague have taken a hard look at Odsal but after some months conclude that on operational grounds, without fully understanding the fiscal side - it is a non starter on the way the new pitch is laid and overall infrastructure which is enough to conclude without digging any further that a one off/ two off would be far too expensive - it would actually make more sense to go to Cardiff as it would operationally be easier.

In the end, most of us are pretty passionate about oval racing and we share the desire to up the game - but like any other SME it is a business and there has to be a medium term upside [ ie some form of profitability ] as investments in running oval racing even at the smalllest level carries significant cost and risk.

The current discussions re admission prices illustrates the dilemma the sport itself has on perceived value for money We have a diverse number/type of venues with widely differing costs which ultimately dictates admission costs. Every sadium owner is different, for example Buster at KL, the stadium is his baby and he agressivley tries to keep the stadium busy as it is his personal ambitio / drive to keep re-investing to make it better - which shows and will continue as finances permit. In Busters case he is accountable to himself. Take the GRA, hugely indebted by a leveraged buy out by Venture capitalists some years ago and the interest charges swallow any profitability.

We are running two tuesday nights in August, not really out of choice but to `pull' together and try and create revenue for the stadium [ not necessarily Startrax ] Big stadiums, greyhound racing etc are going through tough times like the rest of the economy and if we are not careful, if places like Sheff/BV and Cov are not sufficiently supported then they go - forever - and perhaps in ten years time we won't be aspiring to go to Cardiff, we will set our ambitions a little lower to go to Sheffield!

We have a great product that is very reasonably priced - some events offer seemingly better value than others however the admission costs are always allied to potential audience and underlying base operational costs so, for example it will always be dearer for stadium racing that permanent raceways because of regularity of use, conversion of the stadium for hsort circuit racing, regularity of use, lack of incremental income such as catering, a substantive rent, etc, etc - that is business and the bigger stadiums allow stock car racing - or speedway - purely to provide supplementary income to support the main business activity.

I have a philosophy that you have to look at things from other peoples perspective as well as your own.
I understand that this world goes around because of many things and one main things is incentive.Whether it be (in our world) incentives for, fans,drivers AND promoters.
I don't for one minute begrudge promoters the prospect of a big payday every so many years through hosting a world final,afterall the promoters are an integral part of what is metophorically the stack of cards which is this sport..ie take one of the three away and it will fall pretty quickly.
Even as someone who would love to see this sport rise to truly national recognition i would fear the consequenses of aiming as high as the Millenium stadium.
The saying ''Build it and they will come'' may be true in some cases,but the fact is, this sport would have to be built first.
People over many many years have expressed frustration of the lack of national recognition this sport has,also they percieve that the popularity has been purposely kept at a certain level(call it a comfort zone) and there is a fear or something? of it becoming too big...in some quarters anyway.
Whether this is right or wrong i don't know? its just the impression an accumilation of things give.
I suppose calling it a hobby is not the best way of building a sport up,in fact it is simply playing it down.
Back to the main point tho which is there is constant onus placed on the fans to support the cause which when you look at it this sport already has some of the most supportive and dedicated fans.
To be honest i think the WF prices reflect that,and the projected attendance include these people that will pay whatever.
But i just wanted to make the point that even some of these diehards are now thinking twice and questioning the justification.
Its not being pessimistic or negative its just food for thought.
But also do salute the people that go comewhatmay.

You make a very salient point Lofty and I fully endorse - and have always expressed similar admiration for the `hard core' that are the backbome of the sport.

Stock car racing is no different to any business, volume counts - but whilst answers and suggestions seem easy - like bigger,better advertising, better stadiums, we are a sport that regularly attracts week in, week out 700 - 1400 people, 6-7000 for the `highlight' of the year and everything is geared to that volume.

Finding the lifeblood, ie new people can only be achived through marketing and we have been succesful in that area although keeping them as fans other than Bank Holidays is a different question.

Similarly our two wheeled colleagues get massive local media exposure that could not be afforded if paid for but does not generate crowds of any appreciable size.

Speedway has a lot of problems and is held together by enlarge by well healed club owners who are prepared to `prop' the clubs up - as a sport we are sensibly far more conservative and continue to exist and gently move forwards.

Sadly, we are not a big motorsport country unlik for example the USA but as Darren recently pointed out to me from his Stateside job, the forums and blogs of Amrican oval racing could mirror the UK ones!
We have a great product and have to move forward sensibly.

If admission prices are a major problem when in fact they are pretty fair, if the conclusion is that is the reason for a drain on fans then we are in for a torrid time because the prices cannot really come down week in week out, fact of life is when figures do not balance then the end is nigh.

When people discuss the WF, does anyone realise 25% of the revenue funds the driver expenses [ WF plus extra money across schedule and around £1500 for each USA,SA and NZ entrant plus additional monies for the Dutch ] additional seating, additional stadium hire, etc,etc.

The WF schedule is 9-10 x a normal event funding before all the add on costings.

You can remove fringe things such as fireworks, flowers, etc, etc which would reduce the price by around £2 a head - but then it can become just a normal stock car meeting with a big race - and WF day needs to cater for a much wider audience - and, hopefully retain them - You wold actually be amazing the profile of a WF crowd, it staggered me, visitors from across the globe who `drop in' - followers from other disciplines and circuit racing who dip' in.......

Talk of staging events at places like the MS in Cardiff are in reality nothing more than a stox fans wet dream!

As Steve has already mention on the recent posts on this forum, the WF used to attract a crowd of between 10 to 14K. Now its 7K. The reality check is that the sport needs to focus on increasing attendance at what is it's premier event back to the figures mentioned above. In tandem with this, it also needs to look to turn many of those fans who attend the WF as their only event of the season into attending the bread and butter meetings of the season.

There seems little point to me in spending ££££ on staging an event at somewhere like the MS when it would, for me, be highly unlikely to attract more that 15 to 20K fans (and that's being optimistic!). The only viable reason for staging such a high profile event would be if it could a) make a profit and b) have a long term benefit to the sport by attracting new fans and sponsors. To be honest I doubt it would acheive either objective.

A more realistic goal would be to organically grow the WF crowd to a point where the current venues struggle to cope with the attendance and then look at re-opening somehwere like Odsal, which has the facilities, a local population familiar with the product (something you couldn't say about Cardiff) and with an increasing WF audience, would be financialy viaible to re-open and still be profitable.

Sheffield does in someways reflect the sport in its current state. It relies on the hardcore fans to keep it going. However, as anecdotal evidence suggests, new fans have come to Owlerton this season. What's required is to refine the product so that we have a 'polished' product that ensures newbies return for the next meeting. Marketing Sheffield to an audience beyond the hardcore is not impossible as those newbies who have spoken to both Steve and Phil thise season have proven. What is required is a bit of inteligence gathering and using the information gained from this to establish the best way to attract new fans and ensure they come back. In many respects this issue can be applied to the sport as a whole.

It would be very interesting to carry out some feedback at WF to find out why so many of the 7000 audience don't attend regularly and use that information to address that thorny issue. There is an opportunity to do this at KL in September IF the sport is willing to do this. And it would be the sport (or the BMB) because the 7000 come from across the UK not just one specific region so the issue has to be addressed as a collective and not simply left to DP.