Which is how it is done most of the time as there are few variations as options other than trying different things - when you change things some like it some don't - but different things have to be tried even for fear of a critical response because if that was the main criteria for doing anything nothing would change and we definately would be worse off.

One of the reasons we are where we are [ which to be honest is not bad ] is a retisence to change and sometimes think that too much time is spent navel gazing the critics rather than pushing on with some things.

Sticking to the above topic matter, we spent some time thinking through our package and elected a change and brought them atop an open top bus - not a new idea, I remember Mike Parker doing it at White City.
We `opened' up the grid with a track walk for sponsors and Kid Club families and made changes - some didn't like it many equally voiced opinion they did - Some things could be a matter of tradition but we should encourage inovation - I am a srong believer in to try and fail is better than not to try at all - and we do crate an environment which paralyses / stymies thinking outside the box and being creative.

This has been quite an interesting debate thus far and quite illuminating and frustrating at the same time.

I think some of the WF debate was initially started because of falling attendances at WF's over the last 20 odd years. Some have cited the format as being 'tired' and 'predicatable' as a reason why the gates have fallen, others have pointed to the cost to attend the event as reasons why gates have fallen.

However, as anyone actually pointed out (on the other forum websites) that the reason gates have decreased is due to the general fall in attandances over the last 20 odd years? To me the two go hand in hand. If your average attendance at bread and butter meetings throughout the years has gradually reduced it stands to reason that the premier event of the season will not be immune to the knock on affect.

Hence why it is so important to make sure the product is what people want. If you can increase attendances at your bread and butter meetings, the WF will benefit from this as well.

Rather than look at ways to change the WF to increase attendances, we should first focus on getting fans through the door week in, week out and then see if that 'organically' grows the WF attendance?

Hi Steve - Here I go. One way to reduce costs at World Finals and normal meetings would be to reduce the amount of money spent on the F1 cars. In my opinion they now cost far too much and the difference between the lower graders and the top men is out of this world. I have felt for a long time that the costs for running an F1 have got way out of control - and is it much better than years ago???? If the costs were reduced maybe we would get more cars available and racing??? OK have a go at me if you wish - I've got broad shoulders!!!

Interesting observation - would like to read any other comments before adding my own!

Eh? What? Someone mention autograss?

It was mentioned above that F1 stock car racing is being taken seriously. I think that's part of the problem...a major part.

Years ago (here we go, Ged), it was FUN to watch...fun brought in the crowds when cars and drivers weren't "clones" and each had their own character.
Look at how many cars/drivers are recalled easily from the past; you can picture the cars in your mind. What will you picture in your mind in years to come...wedge shaped bodies with wings!
The entry fee for spectators must have been on par with what it is today, but "entertainment" was the key. Although the racing wasn't quite as fast (but fast enough!), incidents were many and makes of car varied (Chevs, Fords, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, Cadillacs, Jaguars etc..), all adding to the enjoyment of the sport.

Nowadays silly money is spent on virtually one make power plants in very similar body shells, equipped with aerofoils which look as effective as a chocolate teapot (or should I say "advertising hordings"?). They all look very samey even when not covered in wet shale!

I have said on numerous occasions over previous seasons that I hoped F1 stox wouldn't price themselves into obscurity...the way it's going, unfortunately it may go that way save for the drivers who have the money to keep going.

Perhaps a different version of F1 (verging on Hotstox) and providing NZ-style racing may save the day. Retro/various body types with V6 or smaller V8 engines. More "normal" road tyres. More entertaining racing; cars split into various "teams" could bring a new age of supporters through the gates. Imagine following your "home" team from Manchester, Rochdale, Yorkshire etc etc...something to get the spectators involved in. Some races these days are just greeted with half-hearted applause.
It would still be fast (enough), colourful and noisy to thrill the crowd and they would always come away feeling as though they had witnessed a spectacle and come back for more.

Now before you say that I'm "picking" on F1 stox, I can see the same thing happening even in autograss where drivers wishing to be competitive in bigger events spend 5-figure sums on cars to race around a field, so it seems daft money in oval motor racing is pretty common.

However, I digress. If we want our "Too many cars on too small a track" to survive, I feel something radical needs to happen regarding entertainment ON TRACK.

GED

Hi guys, interesting debate this one!

wolfysmith wrote:

However, as anyone actually pointed out (on the other forum websites) that the reason gates have decreased is due to the general fall in attandances over the last 20 odd years? To me the two go hand in hand. If your average attendance at bread and butter meetings throughout the years has gradually reduced it stands to reason that the premier event of the season will not be immune to the knock on affect. Hence why it is so important to make sure the product is what people want. If you can increase attendances at your bread and butter meetings, the WF will benefit from this as well. Rather than look at ways to change the WF to increase attendances, we should first focus on getting fans through the door week in, week out and then see if that 'organically' grows the WF attendance?

Wolfy, I sort of raised the points you have above on my post in the WF thread on Stoxnet. There seems to be a number of varied but nevertheless interesting views on the subject on both sites, with many good points and some frustrating ones!

Personally I don't think the price of entry into meetings is too expensive and I don't have a problem with the pricing for World Finals (£20 camping charges are a different matter though ). However, I do find it difficult to be objective sometimes because I love the sport and go whatever the weather, price, distance etc. Maybe to someone who hasn't been before, £25 for WF entry would put them off?

I have suggested to one promotor before now about the possibility of each promotion introducing a loyalty card. That way the loyal fans would feel like their custom is appreciated and are rewarded in a small way for their efforts.

For example, each fan can pick up say, a Startrax loyalty card with their name on and each time they go to a Startrax F1 meeting they show a bank card/driving licence etc to prove they are the person on the loyalty card and stop potential loyalty card swapping! Then the card is stamped when you go through the turnstile and when you get to say 6 stamps you get into the next meeting for say half price and a free programme. It may encourage people to be loyal to one or many promotions if each one offered a loyalty card scheme and some people who were going to miss a meeting may still attend if they realise they can get into that particluar one for half price? Just a thought?

(Steve, the Startrax season ticket was a superb idea and I hope received positive feedback from people).

With regards to the product, I have seen some fantastic racing this season and don't see too much that needs changing with the cars/racing. I think the sport does a pretty good job of managing car specs and rules etc. I appreciate what others have said about the money that is now spent by drivers but I personally feel F1 should remain at the pinnacle of short oval racing and to try and introduce further restrictions for these unlimited beasts is a bit contradictory. We should try and prevent costs escalating further but not restrict what we already have in existence. There are other formulas available such as hotstox for those who need cheaper tyres and budget racing (that's not intended to sound patronising and derogatory to those other formulas, they all have an important role in short oval motorsport and serve their purpose very well).

Regards,

Chris.

HI CARL!

Perhaps I should own up to "getting old". Maybe it's because I have been watching stock car racing since nineteen hundred and frozen to death that I'm now witnessing the "new age" and like all people of my age, prefer the "good old days"?

It's just that if we want the next generation of stox fans to attend F1 stock car racing, like many postings previous, we have to entertain more.

Just witnessing kids in the Belle Vue grandstand at race meetings...which formula do they take the most interest in?....(gulp) the Bangers! Why? They look different, they're FUN and they crash! I never thought I'd hear myself sticking up for bangers...but the principal is the same and should apply to all short circuit contact motor sports in my opinion....and that's why I enjoyed my earlier years watching the F1s more than today.
The sounds of those various V8s and Jag engines racing past in (mostly) recognisable body shells was fun and different.

I suppose that's why I have turned my allegiance towards autograss in recent years. It can't be compared to stox, but the short and sweet racing is fun and allows for all shapes, sizes and power combinations on track. All budgets catered for and with some 5000 registered members nationwide, the sport must be doing something right...and it's not even a contact sport (allegedly!).

F1 stock cars are, and I hope always will, be the elite of contact motor sport but I feel we need to start re-appraising them with view to the future when our kids will want something a little more "gladitorial" to enjoy (?)

I'll still continue to watch F1 stock car racing and enjoy it for what it is for the present, hoping we can tempt new fans through the gates with the product.

Cheers,
GED

To a couple of the points on here:

Riggerman, I like your idea of the loyalty card but you could also apply many of the fringe benefits you mention to a season ticket. For instance this season you could have got say 10% off the entrance to the BoB at Owlerton or the 2 litre BoB in October. In addition to this, other offers such as the meal deals in the restaurants etc, all production of your season ticket.

Turning to the comments concerning the escalating costs of the cars, whilst I prefer to see professionally turned out machinery, I don't beleive this is an excuse to justify costs being allowed to simply take the sport out of the reach of the 'man-in-the-street'. Where possible, restrictions should be placed on things that allow F1 to still be managable. However, like Ged has highlighted in his comments about grasstrack, you will never stop drivers spending vast sums to give them the edge over their competitors. We do have low cost formulas such as F2 which has over 500 registered drivers and of course V8 Hotstox

I've read comments from both drivers and fans in the past that there should not be restrictions put in place to ensure F1's position as the 'elite' oval formula. Elitism is not something I would subscribe to. Fair enough, the sport is the 'big league' of oval racing and should remain so, but it should be inclusive and not elitist.