A world final audience depends on the volume of people going through the turnstyles of the week in week out meetings.
Unfortuneately, the majority of spectators at meetings are the same people, week in week out, and what's missing is a high % of people from the area local to each track. I believe Cov said less than 30% of their crowd come from the local area.
When you look at the areas we currently race at, it's amazing the small % of locals turning up - Coventry, Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, all big cities.
Like you say Wolfy, the key is to build back local support thereby increasing the potential W/F audience, hopefully the BBC docu will start the ball rolling.

Unfortunately Tim, for far too many years there has been a reliance on the hardcore, traveling support, to make up the backbone of the crowds at most tracks, albeit exceptions to the rule.

In my opinion, marketing to attract new blood or even lapsed fans has been haphazard and undertaken without any kind of prior marketing data and hence why promotions over the years have bemoaned that there efforts have largely come to naught.

Marketing (advertising) is very expensive and you needd to ensure the spend is made via the right media to the right people who are the most likely to respond to that advertising, which brings you full circle why it is so important to know who your customers are as they will provide the best guide as to where best to market your product, or make changes to increase it's appeal.

I think that analogy is harsh Chris, different promotions do lot's of different things during the course of a year - you just don't necessarily see or hear about them. Raising the profile of the sport - and getting the people through the gate are two totally different entities - ie speedway has plenty of the former not the latter.

We have all to understand we are an entertainment at the seaside and Bank Holidays - predominantely and as with most motorsports in this country a relative minority interest.

Times have changed and competing activities and it is to the sports credit that we are still here relatively healthy and certainly healthier than many competitors.

Reading threads on admission prices drives me to despair - if the comments are representative of the whole, we don't have much of a future!

Most Elite speedway tracks are £16 admission, £2/£2.50 programme - major events £20/£25 - £120 - our sport delivers excellent value for money but stadiums cannot run any more on ten bob admission!

It is a reality that the sport - but we are by no means alone - is reliant very heavily on it's dedicated fans hence why I suggest in many cases admission price increases have been restrained by almost all promotions - we really should have increased to £16-£17 along with Coventry just to stand still but opted against it for reasons of the economy.

Surveys are a useful tool - but I bet I can predict the trend of response to different questions. We can however ascertain at least some knowledge about retention albeit I doubt in many instances as we are a holiday activity for a mass audience, that we will be able to do too much about it.

[quote="steven"]
Times have changed and competing activities and it is to the sports credit that we are still here relatively healthy and certainly healthier than many competitors.

Reading threads on admission prices drives me to despair - if the comments are representative of the whole, we don't have much of a future!
.[/y quote]
I have a certain amount of sympathy when it comes to everyday meetings and the fact that that area is still looked upon as reasonably healthy suggests the majority would say the price is understandable and although some may pick and choose more nowadays it is still regarded as VFM in the main.
Like i have said before,and i am talking over years and years..People percieve that this sport(not you personally Steve) but as a whole,as stayed within a certain comfort zone ie,individually we are doing ok in our own little areas for now so whats the problem.
This sport as had decades to stealthily, with a with a United strategy to get this sport into the consciences of the people nationwide and we are still fighting the banger comparison to this day and even more alarming that some motorsport followers are still unaware of our existance...in short it hasn't built to the hieghts it could have.
It is equally fair to say that in recent years it as been noticable that a concerted effort as been made to rectify this with many breakthroughs on tv,motorshows etc coming to the fore which can only be appreciated and applauded,the biggest being the forthcoming documentary series.
This will obviously take time to achieve the recognition we crave,this is a product of the distant and relatively recent past, it may have got off to a slow start, but it unfair on some issues to knock the current crop of promoters today ...as we are going in the right direction now, so good on ya's

World Finals could benefit from this but, its got to the stage with quite a few of the fans are asking themselves is what is on offer worth the very large ticket prices...and just because it is a World Final race does not seem to be enough anymore...again with some.
The ante has been raised by the price hikes yet meeting wise,apart from swapping race orders about and a few different entertainment additions its the same as it as always been.
Its only cos people are now standing back and weighing up the cost they ask themselves the question relating to VFM.Thats why i started a thread on format change for the WF a while back cos this feeling as been for around on the terraces for a while now..Tim hit upon this point also.
Not saying the suggested format was or wasn't the right one,just that it needed to be meeting that had to be a must see to the people who no longer thought it was..and if i'm being very honest at todays prices it is for me, an "i'd like to see..but.." but not a ''must see''.
Call me a heritic as many would,but i'd love to be one of the i'm going comewhatmay people again.

I realise that my comments will have come across as harsh and that wasn't my intention as I'm accutely aware that promoters do a lot of hardwork to promote the sport (naturally, it's your business), but the fact remains Steve that crowds have contracted year on year.

Survey's are a means to an end. The more information you garner from your customers about them and what they think of your product the more you can ensure that what you offer ticks all the right boxes. That in turn ensures the hardwork of promotion (and the expense incurred) pays off when someone samples the product, likes it enough to come back for more.

My gripe, if you will, is that apart from your survey back in 1997, when has a promotion actually undertaken some market research apart from using the forums, which in my opinion are the haunt of the committed race fan and not representative of the vast majority of fans who attend meetings (if they did you'd have 800 or so racing ratings instead of say 20 or 30)?

Steve, you have a pretty good idea already of the typical crowd at a Startrax meeting and that's understandable, but survey's can throw up some interesting bits of information useful to a business in order to make sure it's product is one the customer wants. It will also provide a benchmark of where you are and give you the knowledge of what areas to work on to improve what your offering.

You've mentioned entertainment and that what most people who first come to a stock car meeting want - cars crashing. It's the motivation to attend. However, they are unlikely to come back if the toilets are filthy, staff are rude, the food is rubbish and the meetings drags on and on. It's this aspect which, I believe, has been overlooked in the past and goes someway to explain why crowds have dwindled in the last 20 years.

Of course, like all of this it's theory and hence why actually asking the qestions gives you the facts to work with.

Lofty's and Wolfy's posts above hit the nail on the head.
As Lotfy says, the World final meeting is no longer seen as value for money ( a jazzed up normal meeting ) that's why I harp on about a one off venue, to make the meeting different, whatever else is wrong with speedway ( too many to say on here ) the British Grand Prix gets lot's of publicity, attracts non speedway die hards as well as long distance travellers, reasonable sponserships and displays speedway in a good light.
Does speedway get 42,000 spectators during the course of a week from all 3 leagues?

Wolfy is right when he says about toilets etc, I know it seems trivial, but the younger audience ( which is what is missing from Stock Cars ) will not accept below standard facilities, they will happily pay over the top prices but insist on a high standard of facility and amenities, which includes admission price includes seating.
The worrying thing about surveys is :-
1. we might not like what we hear, maybe our sport is only ever going to be a "club" sport like grasstrack etc
2. Much of what a survey will say is what a survey 15 years ago will have said. surveys and appeals for opinions are only any use if the results are acted upon, wheather we think they're right or not. Failure to act on opinion leads to apathy, which is where we are now in a lot of ways.

HI FOLKS!

Just my opinion, but I think the prices to watch a WF these days is taking the Michael....in addition to travelling expenses/food/drink....

Yes, I believe the "Big Meeting" should provide more spectacle than a normal event, but to charge extortionate prices (especially when money is tight these days) is out of order. Perhaps a nice round £20 could be more tempting...not the best part of £30!

Rather than have singers and fireworks (which the fans obviously are not THAT interested in), why not give the fans what they REALLY attend for...a proper stock car meeting. By that, I feel that making the event more like the British Championship would provide more hard racing, entertainment and surprises than the current format.

Why on earth in OUR stock car racing do we have a "F1 Grand Prix" style grid with the higher point scorers at the front?? Why can't we have the top 64 season point scorers in the one meeting, along with the usual handful of overseas visitors, and run a "normal" all F1 stox event, with the top 24 (ish) highest point scorers within that meeting racing for the title later in the evening under floodlights? Grid positions could then be allotted via a draw before the race to add a bit of extra spice, so positions are still not decided until the last minute!

Imagine 515/391/390 etc further down the grid...or still at the front depending on the draw!

Now that would be something to BE THERE FOR!

That would bring more punters through the gates to witness a spectacle full of surprises, great racing and entertainment which is the name of the game.

It's about time the current format was shelved and something else tried out WHICH WOULD BRING A MORE "INTERESTING" ELEMENT TO OUR BIG EVENT.

GED

Feedback is necessary - and as a promoter welcome it particularly about the running of an event, facilities and other likes and dislikes and would go a step further in encouraging people to contact us direct.

Tbh, rr become depressing as they are subjective and not objective - and everyone has individual track likes and dislikes - plus places like BV/Sheff and Cov will always appear less favourable in many areas as they have security, curfews and restrictions not apparent at raceways - ditto closeness to the action, never the same with a dog track in between, they are though factors beyond any promoters control. A 5.5 hour meeting at track A will be awesome and at track B cursed as the most disorganised shambles on planet earth.

Again, depressingly, there will be many things that can be fixed as much as there will be many that cannot because more revenue is needed.

Customer feedback is an area we are embarking upon to at least provide a feel and a trend - what I am quite sure will be highlighted is wildly different expectations from `new' visitors to existing fans.

In terms of WF and presentation, there are only so many different ways to bring 36 cars onto a track - and only so much budget to back that presentation up. WF will be received differently at venues, KL for example smaller and well suited now to a WF - with 7k inside it would be full - and that creates atmosphere - 7k in the millenium stadium - would be like the day after the Lord Mayors Parade! Atmosphere adds - the racing is at the mercy of luck on the day - the only way to control that is to stipulate the size of the circuit as part of the criteria - the smaller the track the greater number the cars the higher he percentile chance of action. It does not take Einstein to calculate which has the likelihood of making a better WF race, the vast expanses if Ipswich or the trickier contours of Brum! At the other end one has the right facilities and one doesn't.
KL has a higher degree of producing the right ingredients, loose surface, confined track, big tyres!

How a WF can be reduced in price is difficult to reason - one of the biggest elements is the prize schedule together with stadium rent/ seating when a promoter has to `hire' a venue as opposed to staging it his/her own venue.

Ged - doing away with the things you suggest would affect pricing by £1 - £2 maximum a a WF - It is part of an all round `show' - as my previous post suggests you cannot always guarantee the actual racing element.

The WF appeals to a much different audience than an everyday event.

And - put in perspective - the Speedway World Cup QR - a qualifier, not the final, on a Monday night live on SKY was £30 seating, £20 standing + programme + parking - this was at Peterborough, a fine racing track and fine basic venue but not on the par facilities wise with Ippy,KL,Cov,Sheffield etc - and my estimate would have been around 4500-5000 spectators in attendance.

They had `fireworks' - not as impressive as Ipswich and pretty start line girls [ Becky Johnson being one!] to add a touch of glamour and a decent sound system - and the worlds best track curator - Buster Chapman - who produced an awesome racing track - well done Buster!

I'm not entirely convinced that these comparisons to speedway are helpful or relevant. If someone complains about the price of apples, telling them how much potatoes are isn't really much use.

As for advertising, marketing, and the like, here's my two pence worth. My local (Premiership!) football team are in the middle of some extensive advertising and some serious discounts on tickets in an attempt to boost audience figures. My mate, who is a staunch season ticket holder, has bemoaned the fact that they probably couldn't fill the ground every week even if they let everybody in for free. Sadly, I can't help thinking that would probably be true for some stock car tracks.

I've taken plenty of newbies over the years, and without exception all said they enjoyed it, but they all also said that they wouldn't do it every week. Nothing to do with the race format, the toilets, the price, or any other of the much cited factors, but quite simply that motorsport in general wasn't their thing.

In much the same way that football and ice hockey aren't my thing, which is why I rarely go to the local venues no matter how much they advertise.

Not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs or anything, but the key things are
1. Find the people that stock car racing would appeal to and that aren't already aware of it.
2. Don't alienate the existing fanbase and reduce it even more.

Pretty spot on there Carl on a couple of counts - although in fairness comparison with our two wheeled colleagues is highly relevant - being a speedway fan - the profile of their fan base [ an increasingly aged base of die hards] stadiums, facilities etc are as close as it comes - From a marketing point of view - highly relevant as they get media space and exposure foc being a team sport that we couldn't afford to pay for - and it has limited effect which does demonstrate just how difficult it is to identify exactly whom to target for our sport - other than Bank Holidays / seaside when an advert for `cars crashing' fills a destination requirement for entertainment - and you are spot on, new visitors may well enjoy it but only a small percentage would ever dream of anything than an occasional visit due to lifestyles and competing attractions etc.
There is also a much bigger crossiver of fans [ speedway & stox ] than they and we may care to admit!

Finding some form of transition from what we have to what may appeal more to a wider audience is also fickle. You are right that you must not alienate the hard core fans - the backbone - and it is frustrating knowing that and having little power to effect things to benefit them. To be fair, as a promotion we have done our bit in season tickets and kids club etc to reduce costs and reward loyal fans - but to do something more dynamic to reward you, we need more people through the gates revenue wise as operating margins are very thin. We have a marketing budget that equates roughly to 10% of gross income, we would love to spend up to a third, but the risk is too high - for example we were just about to push the button on a TV campaign as previously stated - but will probably opt to delay it - 9k spend when a prediction of 700,000 a week suffering at home from flu is not a good time for speculating!
On the flip side, you sometimes have to be brave and accept the criticism to move forward - if we continually remain inward looking we will inevitably die.
As an example, in 1997 when we ran Stoke Speedway we tried a little to break the mould by trying to make the show more appealing Start time was moved to 7.pm from 7.30.pm which brought about a barrage of complaint from regular fans, however we added - at no extra charge, a full second half of either Quads, Sidecars, Vintage Bikes etc and introduced a live band in the bar after racing finished - to `add value' and try and attract new people - After losing around 30k we moved on!

In 1996 and 1997 few would deny that the `show' we put on at Bradford wasn't good - Big Music, celebrity presenters, stage show, girls - a sense of occasion - so much so that the Bulls adopted some of the ideas or them - we worked with a professional outfit, Daytona exhibitions, we remortgaged the house, spent massive amounts on advertising and, by enlarge attracted great crowds with excellent satisfation feedback. Problem was we were too cheap - admission prices needed to be at least £1 more for it to be profitable and sustainable - saldy Odsal was lost after two years so where this work may have taken is would be merely speculation.


In terms of other sports, both the Giants and Huddersfield Town last year undertook a spectacularly low and aggressive season ticket campaign that worked and boosted average attendance for HTFC by around 3000 - so, even if, with the discounting, they broke even, they had 3000 more people eating and drinking which pushes up that revenue, matchday programmes and merchandising.
Unfortunately we are not a team sport, our stadiums are structured differently and we do not have an original 6000 hard core base to expand upon week in week out - But the concept is right and part of that was behind our own deeply discounted season ticket package and we are continuing work on this for 2010 and are considering launching a HEROES admission concession focused at the armed forces once we can bolt it all together.

Nothing is easy and can only be done within a budget which limits what can be done - Greyhound Rcaing and Sheffield in this instance can draw on the BGRB which is funded from betting levies, fees paid in etc,etc who issue grants for improvements or even advertising - a substantive part of the restaurant re-development is coming from here as did funding for a TV campaign a couple of years ago.

Hence in a smaller way, our idea of a Gala Night - this generates an insignificant amount by comparison but after 3/4 years there should be enough in the kitty to undertake something meaningful - I do have an idea for 2010 which may/may not be accepted and hinges around broadcast dates on the BBC for the proposed 6 part series.

More volume, more revenue gives more conficence to invest and speculate - we do very well to be fair. Most of today's promoters have come in at the lean end of the sport - some criticism of our earlier promoting colleagues when times were good and kept the money rather than invested or kept some reserves for a changing market, may be justified. The new promoters have relatively high operating costs - much lower audience levels - and without back up finance have to find of way of trying to grow the sport whilst eeking out some profitability to keep going and undertake routine things.